I love fantasy novels. I know that they can get gory and violent and Bad Things Happen. BUT. GRRM is so awful to so many of his characters, especially the women. It honestly makes you wonder what kind of person the author is if they can treat their characters as being disposable in so many instances.
I know that the people I know who've read his stuff LOVE his stuff.
There are a handful of big authors who are anti-fanfic. AND 100% they are entitled to their opinion. You've probably heard me say this before... Sorry!
I've only managed to get through the first one so far, but I did like it. He's a good writer. I have other fantasy authors that I think are better, but he's not the worst either.
They sure are, it's their work after all. But if we aren't making money off it (helllloooo E. L. James), why should they care? But it's all good - it's something that goes around and around.
Payroll is done, Job slips are done, some vendors have been paid. Assistant left early for the first grade concert, but...
I've just seen some authors be so very wonderful about it. Find it flattering rather than intrusive. To be angry about it seems like you don't want imaginative readers. BUT....
I do have gummy stuffs and chocolate and caramel flavored coffee! And I'm heading home to knit in two and a half hours.
Agreed. Aimee Carter, who writes YA books, tweeted the link when she found her first fanfic. AND READ IT. That's what I call wonderful. And I totally get not liking it, but getting upset over it? That seems a bit much.
Wonderful! I have lunch to eat and am not sure if I have anything sweet, but I just ordered myself a new phone so I'm calling that good. Have fun knitting!
I have read all the GRRM about Westoros that's out there, and Nightflyers. I like his writing style, but I have to say it was interesting to go BACK to Nightflyers since it was written before ASOIAF; it's less world-building (which he does awesomely), but in that case (short stories) not necessary, and actually as the more spartan style clearly reflects the vast emptiness of unconquered space, entirely appropriate.
I don't know enough about the man himself to judge, but I take it from your conversation with K that he dislikes fanfic? I don't get that, but I know there are a bunch of them who are like-minded. When you think about how many stories there are (as in plots), so many are just a rehash of the same or similar plot, it doesn't make sense, As long as you're not making money (as you said) off direct fanfic, or plagiarising for your own 'novel' to make money, what's the harm? I honestly compare stories all the time and you could for instance swap characters or lines from his novels with, someone like JRRT, and it would make sense to some degree, so how's fanfic for pleasure and not gain any different?
I do wonder about the minds of most novelists to some degree, but with an epic like ASOIAF it's inevitable you would, just like any reader, have your own favourites and others you're not as emotionally invested in, I'm sure! But you can't be too concerned overall, as it is fantasy (no matter the inevitable comparisons) and in a history-rich world like Westeros, foul and nasty things will happen, just like in RL history, if you think about it. I recently had this conversation at work with someone who was worried about what the writer's (not GRRM) own life (and consequent mental state) was like, but I said all those crime and whodunnit writers don't necessarily have to have been murderers in RL in order to write about it, so you can't judge on the novel's contents alone! Mental states are harder, but I worry more about the VC Andrews of this world than the GRRMs - he at least does include a varied cast of characters, including an awful lot of strong and interesting women. I'm not sure the same can always be said of some of the 'action' and 'romance' writers out there.
I said this earlier, but I've only managed to get through A Game of Thrones, haven't managed to make it any farther into the series. So, whatever I say comes from that alone. :) But I agree, I think he's very good. But, he's also not my favorite because I have bias towards a local author, Terry Goodkind.
I don't know specifically, but judging by what K said, I'm guessing it's true. About all I know about him is that he keeps promising the last books and keeps watching his deadlines whoosh by in a very Douglas Adams-like manner. But I 110% agree on the fanfic aspect. And again, as long as you're not pulling an E. L. James on us, where's the harm? Still not sure how her AU Twilight fanfic got to be so popular.
Here, I guess my issue is more about the vast amounts of awfulness and less about my favorite dying. Right, war is hell, fantasy worlds are brutal, but... do we need to see every single episode of it? It seems like some fantasy novels are so full of horrible stuff and I get it to a point but... there are other authors who write gritty, dark fantasy (Tad Williams' Shadowmarch is a good example) and can get by without a single rape scene or other graphically awful depiction of some kind. Does that make more sense? I know life isn't pretty in Helm's Deep or Westeros or in the D'Haran Empire. But the author doesn't need to detail all the awfulness either. Hit us with what's important to the plot, thanks.
As far as murder mystery/thriller writers go, our neighbors give us more than enough fodder to build off of, you don't always have to have a great imagination for that because the FBI and local law enforcement has more than enough true stories to draw on. But fantasy novels? That's a whole other story. On the other hand, I agree re: VC Andrews. There is something not right there.
But, in the end, there are a million books because not everyone will like what you like and I'm okay with that. If it means I stick to my D&D novels and shy away from ASOIAF, then that's on me and no one else.
You make a good point about the validity or relevance to the plot, and yeah, probably not all of it has to be so well documented; sometimes a mention or a fade-to-black is okay.
And I totally get what you're saying about him writing and not publishing. Honestly, how many years has it been? JUST FREAKIN' PUT IT OUT THERE, DUDE. Or have you been completely unable to end the damned thing? I WANNA KNOW!!!
HA! I knew it couldn't just be me with VC Andrews. While I read a bunch of the Flowers novels, I really wondered...
And yep, you're so right, thank goodness, because I don't know what I'd do if women were only allowed to read het romance... probably give up reading altogether.
Honestly, I never want to read about a brutal attack but... if it's absolutely essential to the plot, I can work through it. And exactly. I get a lot of hate for this sometimes, but I feel the same way about sex. I don't always want to read it.
I think someone said it's been ten years since the last one came out? While fantasy novels are much more labor intensive, 10 years is a bit excessive. I saw someone else comment that he's lost his passion and wants to do other things and will never finish. While I understand that as a writer, dude, give your notes to a ghostwriter and get on with your life.
I read the first Flowers novel and liked it for it's weirdness, but man. Probably didn't help that I was majoring in psychology when I read it either.
Exactly. I love a god het romance, but I don't always want to read it. Heck, I don't even want to read romance all the time. But that's how some people are and I'll never understand it. But, I'll also never shame them for it either. Let me have my cowboys, my serial killers, and my manga and I'll leave you alone. LOL
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Date: 2019-05-15 05:59 pm (UTC)However... YAY FOR GEEK MOMENTS!!!
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Date: 2019-05-15 06:02 pm (UTC)I love fantasy novels. I know that they can get gory and violent and Bad Things Happen. BUT. GRRM is so awful to so many of his characters, especially the women. It honestly makes you wonder what kind of person the author is if they can treat their characters as being disposable in so many instances.
But yes... GEEKS FOR THE WIN!
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Date: 2019-05-15 06:11 pm (UTC)There are a handful of big authors who are anti-fanfic. AND 100% they are entitled to their opinion. You've probably heard me say this before... Sorry!
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Date: 2019-05-15 06:16 pm (UTC)They sure are, it's their work after all. But if we aren't making money off it (helllloooo E. L. James), why should they care? But it's all good - it's something that goes around and around.
Hope Wednesday is treating you well. :)
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Date: 2019-05-15 06:39 pm (UTC)I've just seen some authors be so very wonderful about it. Find it flattering rather than intrusive. To be angry about it seems like you don't want imaginative readers. BUT....
I do have gummy stuffs and chocolate and caramel flavored coffee! And I'm heading home to knit in two and a half hours.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-15 07:02 pm (UTC)Agreed. Aimee Carter, who writes YA books, tweeted the link when she found her first fanfic. AND READ IT. That's what I call wonderful. And I totally get not liking it, but getting upset over it? That seems a bit much.
Wonderful! I have lunch to eat and am not sure if I have anything sweet, but I just ordered myself a new phone so I'm calling that good. Have fun knitting!
no subject
Date: 2019-05-15 10:14 pm (UTC)I don't know enough about the man himself to judge, but I take it from your conversation with K that he dislikes fanfic? I don't get that, but I know there are a bunch of them who are like-minded. When you think about how many stories there are (as in plots), so many are just a rehash of the same or similar plot, it doesn't make sense, As long as you're not making money (as you said) off direct fanfic, or plagiarising for your own 'novel' to make money, what's the harm? I honestly compare stories all the time and you could for instance swap characters or lines from his novels with, someone like JRRT, and it would make sense to some degree, so how's fanfic for pleasure and not gain any different?
I do wonder about the minds of most novelists to some degree, but with an epic like ASOIAF it's inevitable you would, just like any reader, have your own favourites and others you're not as emotionally invested in, I'm sure! But you can't be too concerned overall, as it is fantasy (no matter the inevitable comparisons) and in a history-rich world like Westeros, foul and nasty things will happen, just like in RL history, if you think about it. I recently had this conversation at work with someone who was worried about what the writer's (not GRRM) own life (and consequent mental state) was like, but I said all those crime and whodunnit writers don't necessarily have to have been murderers in RL in order to write about it, so you can't judge on the novel's contents alone! Mental states are harder, but I worry more about the VC Andrews of this world than the GRRMs - he at least does include a varied cast of characters, including an awful lot of strong and interesting women. I'm not sure the same can always be said of some of the 'action' and 'romance' writers out there.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-15 10:29 pm (UTC)I don't know specifically, but judging by what K said, I'm guessing it's true. About all I know about him is that he keeps promising the last books and keeps watching his deadlines whoosh by in a very Douglas Adams-like manner. But I 110% agree on the fanfic aspect. And again, as long as you're not pulling an E. L. James on us, where's the harm? Still not sure how her AU Twilight fanfic got to be so popular.
Here, I guess my issue is more about the vast amounts of awfulness and less about my favorite dying. Right, war is hell, fantasy worlds are brutal, but... do we need to see every single episode of it? It seems like some fantasy novels are so full of horrible stuff and I get it to a point but... there are other authors who write gritty, dark fantasy (Tad Williams' Shadowmarch is a good example) and can get by without a single rape scene or other graphically awful depiction of some kind. Does that make more sense? I know life isn't pretty in Helm's Deep or Westeros or in the D'Haran Empire. But the author doesn't need to detail all the awfulness either. Hit us with what's important to the plot, thanks.
As far as murder mystery/thriller writers go, our neighbors give us more than enough fodder to build off of, you don't always have to have a great imagination for that because the FBI and local law enforcement has more than enough true stories to draw on. But fantasy novels? That's a whole other story. On the other hand, I agree re: VC Andrews. There is something not right there.
But, in the end, there are a million books because not everyone will like what you like and I'm okay with that. If it means I stick to my D&D novels and shy away from ASOIAF, then that's on me and no one else.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-15 11:45 pm (UTC)And I totally get what you're saying about him writing and not publishing. Honestly, how many years has it been? JUST FREAKIN' PUT IT OUT THERE, DUDE. Or have you been completely unable to end the damned thing? I WANNA KNOW!!!
HA! I knew it couldn't just be me with VC Andrews. While I read a bunch of the Flowers novels, I really wondered...
And yep, you're so right, thank goodness, because I don't know what I'd do if women were only allowed to read het romance... probably give up reading altogether.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-16 06:18 pm (UTC)I think someone said it's been ten years since the last one came out? While fantasy novels are much more labor intensive, 10 years is a bit excessive. I saw someone else comment that he's lost his passion and wants to do other things and will never finish. While I understand that as a writer, dude, give your notes to a ghostwriter and get on with your life.
I read the first Flowers novel and liked it for it's weirdness, but man. Probably didn't help that I was majoring in psychology when I read it either.
Exactly. I love a god het romance, but I don't always want to read it. Heck, I don't even want to read romance all the time. But that's how some people are and I'll never understand it. But, I'll also never shame them for it either. Let me have my cowboys, my serial killers, and my manga and I'll leave you alone. LOL